Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org)
If We
Don't Act Now, Fascism Will Be on Our Doorstep, Says Yale Historian
By Steven Rosenfeld [1] / AlterNet [2]
March 7, 2017
How
close is President Donald Trump to following the path blazed by last century's
tyrants? Could American democracy be replaced with totalitarian rule? There's
enough resemblance that Yale historian Timothy Snyder, who studies fascist and
communist regime change and totalitarian rule, has written a book warning about
the threat and offering lessons for resistance and survival. The author
of On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century [3] talked
to AlterNet's Steven Rosenfeld.
Steven
Rosenfeld: Three weeks ago, you said that the country has perhaps a year 'to
defend American democracy.' You said what happens in the next few weeks is
crucial. Are you more concerned than ever that our political culture and
institutions are evolving toward fascism, resembling key aspects of the early
20th-century European regimes you’ve studied?
Timothy Snyder: Let me answer you in three parts. The first thing is that the 20 lessons that I wrote, I wrote on November 15th. The book, On Tyranny, was done by Christmas. Which means if people read it now, and people are reading it, and it's describing the world they are in, that means I’ve successfully made predictions based on history. We’re going to talk about what is going to come, but I want to point out that timeline—it was basically completely blind. But the book does describe what is going on now.
The year figure is there because we have to recognize that things move fast. Nazi Germany took about a year. Hungary took about two and a half years. Poland got rid of the top-level judiciary within a year. It’s a rough historical guess, but the point is because there is an outside limit, you therefore have to act now. You have to get started early. It’s just very practical advice. It’s the meta-advice of the past: That things slip out of reach for you, psychologically very quickly, and then legally almost as quickly. It’s hard for people to act when they feel other people won’t act. It’s hard for people to act when they feel like they have to break the law to do so. So it is important to get out in front before people face those psychological and legal barriers.
Am I more worried now? I realize that was your question. No, I’m exactly as worried as I was before, in November. I think that the people who inhabit the White House inhabit a different ideological world in which they would like for the United States not to be the constitutional system that it now is. I was concerned about that in November. I’m concerned about it now. Nothing that has happened since has changed the way I see things.
SR: Let’s talk about how this evolution takes place. You’ve written about how 'post-truth is pre-fascism.' You talk about leaders ignoring facts, law and history. How far along this progression are we? I’m wondering where you might see things going next.
TS: That’s tough because what history does is give you a whole bunch of cases where democratic republics become authoritarian regimes; sometimes fascist regimes, sometimes communist regimes. It doesn’t give you one storyline: A, B, C, D. It gives you a bunch of clusters of A, and a bunch of clusters of C. But factuality is really important and more important than people realize, because it’s the substructure of regime change.
We think about democracy, and that’s the word that Americans love to use, democracy, and that’s how we characterize our system. But if democracy just means going to vote, it’s pretty meaningless. Russia has democracy in that sense. Most authoritarian regimes have democracy in that sense. Nazi Germany had democracy in that sense, even after the system had fundamentally changed.
Timothy Snyder: Let me answer you in three parts. The first thing is that the 20 lessons that I wrote, I wrote on November 15th. The book, On Tyranny, was done by Christmas. Which means if people read it now, and people are reading it, and it's describing the world they are in, that means I’ve successfully made predictions based on history. We’re going to talk about what is going to come, but I want to point out that timeline—it was basically completely blind. But the book does describe what is going on now.
The year figure is there because we have to recognize that things move fast. Nazi Germany took about a year. Hungary took about two and a half years. Poland got rid of the top-level judiciary within a year. It’s a rough historical guess, but the point is because there is an outside limit, you therefore have to act now. You have to get started early. It’s just very practical advice. It’s the meta-advice of the past: That things slip out of reach for you, psychologically very quickly, and then legally almost as quickly. It’s hard for people to act when they feel other people won’t act. It’s hard for people to act when they feel like they have to break the law to do so. So it is important to get out in front before people face those psychological and legal barriers.
Am I more worried now? I realize that was your question. No, I’m exactly as worried as I was before, in November. I think that the people who inhabit the White House inhabit a different ideological world in which they would like for the United States not to be the constitutional system that it now is. I was concerned about that in November. I’m concerned about it now. Nothing that has happened since has changed the way I see things.
SR: Let’s talk about how this evolution takes place. You’ve written about how 'post-truth is pre-fascism.' You talk about leaders ignoring facts, law and history. How far along this progression are we? I’m wondering where you might see things going next.
TS: That’s tough because what history does is give you a whole bunch of cases where democratic republics become authoritarian regimes; sometimes fascist regimes, sometimes communist regimes. It doesn’t give you one storyline: A, B, C, D. It gives you a bunch of clusters of A, and a bunch of clusters of C. But factuality is really important and more important than people realize, because it’s the substructure of regime change.
We think about democracy, and that’s the word that Americans love to use, democracy, and that’s how we characterize our system. But if democracy just means going to vote, it’s pretty meaningless. Russia has democracy in that sense. Most authoritarian regimes have democracy in that sense. Nazi Germany had democracy in that sense, even after the system had fundamentally changed.
Democracy
only has substance if there’s the rule of law. That is, if people believe that the
votes are going to be counted and they are counted. If they believe that
there’s a judiciary out there that will make sense of things if there’s some
challenge. If there isn’t rule of law, people will be afraid to vote the way
they want to vote. They'll vote for their own safety as opposed to their
convictions. So the thing we call democracy depends on the rule of law. And the
things we call the rule of law depends upon trust. Law functions 99 percent of
the time automatically. It functions because we think it’s out there. And that,
in turn, depends on the sense of truth. So there’s a mechanism here. You can
get right to heart of the matter if you can convince people that there is no
truth. Which is why the stuff that we characterize as post-modern and might
dismiss is actually really, really essential.
The
second thing about 'post-truth is pre-fascism' is I’m trying to get people’s
attention, because that is actually how fascism works. Fascism says, disregard
the evidence of your senses, disregard observation, embolden deeds that can’t
be proven, don’t have faith in god but have faith in leaders, take part in
collective myth of an organic national unity, and so forth. Fascism was
precisely about setting the whole Enlightenment aside and then selling what sort
of myths emerged. Now those [national] myths are pretty unpredictable, and
contingent on different nations and different leaders and so on, but to just
set facts aside is actually the fastest catalyst. So that part concerns me a
lot.
Where we’re going? The classic thing to watch out for is the shift from one governing strategy to another. In the U.S. system, the typical governing strategy is you more or less have to follow your constituents with legislation because of the election cycle. That’s one pulse of politics. The other pulse of politics is emergency. There’s some kind of terrorist attack and then the leader tries to suspend basic constitutional rights. And then we get on a different rhythm, where the rhythm is not one electoral cycle to the next but one emergency to the next. That’s how regime changes take place. It’s a classic way since the Reichstag fire [when the Nazis burned their nation’s capitol building and blamed communist arsonists].
So in terms of what might happen next, or what people could look out for, some kind of event that the government claims is a terrorist incident, would be something to be prepared for. That’s why it’s one of the lessons in the book.
SR: You have talked before about that kind of emergency justification—and even with Vladimir Putin in Russia. Is that what you think would happen here? Because with the exception of the judiciary, a lot of American institutions, like Congress, are not really resisting. They’re going along.
TS: They’re going along… but my own intuition would be the emergency situation arises because going along isn’t going to be enough. Paradoxically, Congress is going along and is going to pass a bunch of stuff, which is not actually very popular. Right? It’s not going to be so popular to have millions of people lose health insurance, which is what’s going to happen. The ironic things about the Republican Congress is now it has the ability to do everything it wants to do, but none of what it wants to do is that popular. Except with the few big lobbies, of course. The freedom the Republicans have is the freedom to impose their agenda on down.
Where we’re going? The classic thing to watch out for is the shift from one governing strategy to another. In the U.S. system, the typical governing strategy is you more or less have to follow your constituents with legislation because of the election cycle. That’s one pulse of politics. The other pulse of politics is emergency. There’s some kind of terrorist attack and then the leader tries to suspend basic constitutional rights. And then we get on a different rhythm, where the rhythm is not one electoral cycle to the next but one emergency to the next. That’s how regime changes take place. It’s a classic way since the Reichstag fire [when the Nazis burned their nation’s capitol building and blamed communist arsonists].
So in terms of what might happen next, or what people could look out for, some kind of event that the government claims is a terrorist incident, would be something to be prepared for. That’s why it’s one of the lessons in the book.
SR: You have talked before about that kind of emergency justification—and even with Vladimir Putin in Russia. Is that what you think would happen here? Because with the exception of the judiciary, a lot of American institutions, like Congress, are not really resisting. They’re going along.
TS: They’re going along… but my own intuition would be the emergency situation arises because going along isn’t going to be enough. Paradoxically, Congress is going along and is going to pass a bunch of stuff, which is not actually very popular. Right? It’s not going to be so popular to have millions of people lose health insurance, which is what’s going to happen. The ironic things about the Republican Congress is now it has the ability to do everything it wants to do, but none of what it wants to do is that popular. Except with the few big lobbies, of course. The freedom the Republicans have is the freedom to impose their agenda on down.
The
same thing goes with Mr. Trump. The things that he might do that some people
would like, like building a wall or driving all the immigrants out, those things
are going to be difficult or slow. In the case of the wall, I personally don’t
believe it will ever happen. It’s going to be very slow. So my suspicion is
that it is much easier to have a dramatic negative event, than have a dramatic
positive event. That is one of the reasons I am concerned about the Reichstag
fire scenario. The other reason is that we are being mentally prepared for it
by all the talk about terrorism and by the Muslim ban. Very often when leaders
repeat things over and over they are preparing you for when that meme actually
emerges in reality.
SR: I want to change the topic slightly. You cite many examples from Germany in 1933, the year Hitler consolidated power. So what did ordinary Germans miss that’s relevant for ordinary Americans now? I know some of this is the blurring of facts. But when I have talked to Holocaust survivors, they often say, nobody ever thought things would be that bad, or nobody thought the Germans would go as far as they did.
TS: The German Jews then, and people now, don’t understand how quick their neighbors will change; don’t understand how quickly society can change. They don’t understand the fact that a life that’s been predictable for a long time, doesn’t mean that it will be predictable tomorrow. And people like to think that their experience is exceptional. German Jews might have thought, 'Well, there were pogroms [ethnic cleansing] in Russia, but surely nothing like that could happen here.' That’s what many German Jews thought. So one issue is people need to realize how quickly things can change.
The second thing that German Jews were not aware of, or Germans were not aware of, was how new media can quickly change conversations. In that way, it’s not exactly the same, but radio at that time often ended up being a channel for propaganda. There are parallels with the internet now, where there were hopes that it would be [primarily] enlightening. But in fact, it turns out that with presidential tweets, or with bots, or isolated habits of viewing, it isn’t necessarily enlightening. It’s the opposite. A lot of us were blindsided by the internet in much the same way that people could be blindsided by radio in the 1930s.
But here’s the other view. The one that we have that German Jews didn’t have in 1933 is we have their experience. That’s the premise of the whole book; the premise is that the 20th century showed us what can happen, and there’s lots of wonderful scholarship by German historians and others, which breaks down what can happen and how. And so, one of the first things that we should be doing is taking advantage of the one opportunity that we really have that they didn’t, which is to learn from that history. And that’s the premise of the book.
SR: All of your book’s lessons are very personal: Don’t obey in advance. Believe in truth. Stand out. Defend institutions. Be calm but as courageous as you can be. Yet the change or oppression that you are talking about is systemic and institutional. What do you say to people who say, 'I’ll try, but I may not have the power here.' There’s that cliche, tilting at windmills. ...
TS: Well, if everyone tilted against a windmill, the windmill would fall down, right? Party of the tragedy of Don Quixote is he’s tilting against the wrong thing. So that’s not our problem. We’re pretty sure what the problem is. But he was also alone except for his faithful companion. We’re not really alone. There are millions and millions of people who are looking for that thing to do. Just by sheer math, if everyone does a little thing, it will make a difference. And much of what I am recommending is—you’re right, they are things that people can do, but they also involve some kind of engagement. Whether it’s the small talk [with those you disagree with] or whether it’s the corporeal politics. And that little bit of engagement helps you realize that what you are doing has a kind of sense, even if it doesn’t immediately change the order.
SR: I want to change the topic slightly. You cite many examples from Germany in 1933, the year Hitler consolidated power. So what did ordinary Germans miss that’s relevant for ordinary Americans now? I know some of this is the blurring of facts. But when I have talked to Holocaust survivors, they often say, nobody ever thought things would be that bad, or nobody thought the Germans would go as far as they did.
TS: The German Jews then, and people now, don’t understand how quick their neighbors will change; don’t understand how quickly society can change. They don’t understand the fact that a life that’s been predictable for a long time, doesn’t mean that it will be predictable tomorrow. And people like to think that their experience is exceptional. German Jews might have thought, 'Well, there were pogroms [ethnic cleansing] in Russia, but surely nothing like that could happen here.' That’s what many German Jews thought. So one issue is people need to realize how quickly things can change.
The second thing that German Jews were not aware of, or Germans were not aware of, was how new media can quickly change conversations. In that way, it’s not exactly the same, but radio at that time often ended up being a channel for propaganda. There are parallels with the internet now, where there were hopes that it would be [primarily] enlightening. But in fact, it turns out that with presidential tweets, or with bots, or isolated habits of viewing, it isn’t necessarily enlightening. It’s the opposite. A lot of us were blindsided by the internet in much the same way that people could be blindsided by radio in the 1930s.
But here’s the other view. The one that we have that German Jews didn’t have in 1933 is we have their experience. That’s the premise of the whole book; the premise is that the 20th century showed us what can happen, and there’s lots of wonderful scholarship by German historians and others, which breaks down what can happen and how. And so, one of the first things that we should be doing is taking advantage of the one opportunity that we really have that they didn’t, which is to learn from that history. And that’s the premise of the book.
SR: All of your book’s lessons are very personal: Don’t obey in advance. Believe in truth. Stand out. Defend institutions. Be calm but as courageous as you can be. Yet the change or oppression that you are talking about is systemic and institutional. What do you say to people who say, 'I’ll try, but I may not have the power here.' There’s that cliche, tilting at windmills. ...
TS: Well, if everyone tilted against a windmill, the windmill would fall down, right? Party of the tragedy of Don Quixote is he’s tilting against the wrong thing. So that’s not our problem. We’re pretty sure what the problem is. But he was also alone except for his faithful companion. We’re not really alone. There are millions and millions of people who are looking for that thing to do. Just by sheer math, if everyone does a little thing, it will make a difference. And much of what I am recommending is—you’re right, they are things that people can do, but they also involve some kind of engagement. Whether it’s the small talk [with those you disagree with] or whether it’s the corporeal politics. And that little bit of engagement helps you realize that what you are doing has a kind of sense, even if it doesn’t immediately change the order.
And
finally, a lot of the political theory that I am calling upon, which comes from
the anti-Nazis and the anti-communists, makes the point that even though you
don’t realize it, your own example matters a whole lot, whether it’s positively
or negatively. There are times, and this is one of those times, where small
gestures, or their absence, can make a huge difference. So the things that
might not have mattered a year ago do matter now. The basic thing is we are
making a difference whether we realize it or not, and the basic question is
whether it is positive or negative.
Let me put it a different way. Except for really dramatic moments, most of the time authoritarianism depends on some kind of cycle involving a popular consent of some form. It really does matter how we behave. The danger is [if] we say, 'Well, we don’t see how it matters, and so therefore we are going to just table the whole question.' If we do that, then we start to slide along and start doing the things that the authorities expect of us. Which is why lesson number one is: Don’t obey in advance. You have to set the table differently. You have to say, 'This is a situation in which I need to think for myself about all of the things that I am going to do and not just punt. Not just wait. Nor just see how things seems to me. Because if you do that, then you change and you actually become part of the regime change toward authoritarianism.'
SR: You cite in the book something I read in high school: Eugene Ionesco’s existential play about fascism, Rhinoceros, where people talk about their colleagues at work, in academia, saying stuff like, 'Come on, I don’t agree with everything, but give him a chance.' Ionesco’s point is that people join an unthinking herd before they know it. What would you suggest people do, when they run into others who fall on this spectrum?
Let me put it a different way. Except for really dramatic moments, most of the time authoritarianism depends on some kind of cycle involving a popular consent of some form. It really does matter how we behave. The danger is [if] we say, 'Well, we don’t see how it matters, and so therefore we are going to just table the whole question.' If we do that, then we start to slide along and start doing the things that the authorities expect of us. Which is why lesson number one is: Don’t obey in advance. You have to set the table differently. You have to say, 'This is a situation in which I need to think for myself about all of the things that I am going to do and not just punt. Not just wait. Nor just see how things seems to me. Because if you do that, then you change and you actually become part of the regime change toward authoritarianism.'
SR: You cite in the book something I read in high school: Eugene Ionesco’s existential play about fascism, Rhinoceros, where people talk about their colleagues at work, in academia, saying stuff like, 'Come on, I don’t agree with everything, but give him a chance.' Ionesco’s point is that people join an unthinking herd before they know it. What would you suggest people do, when they run into others who fall on this spectrum?
TS: There
are a few questions here. One is how to keep yourself going. Another is how to
energize other people who agree with you. And the third thing is not
quite Rhinoceros stuff, but how to catch people who are
slipping. Like that CNN coverage last week of the speech to Congress, where one
of the CNN commentators said, 'Oh, now this is presidential.' That was a Rhinoceros moment,
because there was nothing presidential—it was atrocious to parade the victims
of crimes committed by one ethnicity. That was atrocious and there’s nothing
presidential about it.
Catching Rhinoceros moments is one thing. I think it’s really important to think about. The example that Ionesco gives is people saying, 'Yeah, on one hand, with the Jews, maybe they are right.' With Trump, people will say something like, 'Yeah, but on taxes, maybe he’s right.' And the thing to catch is, 'Yeah, but are you in favor of regime change? Are you in favor of the end of the American way of democracy and fair play?' Because that’s what’s really at stake.
With people all the way over at the end of the spectrum who are now confident about Trump—that’s a different subject. I think it’s important to maintain impossible human relations across that divide, because some of those people are going to change their minds. It’s harsh. But some will change their minds, and if they have no one to talk to, it will be much harder for them to change their minds. At different points on the spectrum, you have to think in different ways. My own major concern right now is with self-confidence and the energy of the people who do have the deep—and, I think incorrect—conviction that something has gone wildly wrong.
SR: The people who have the conviction that something has gone wildly wrong—that can describe Trump supporters and Trump opponents.
TS: That’s a good point. So much of this is personal. In the book, I don’t actually mention anybody’s name, except the thinkers who I admire. So much of this is personal that people think, 'Well, if you say anything critical, it is about you as a person, and how you don’t like anything about someone who likes Trump.' That’s a way for there to be no political discussion.
Catching Rhinoceros moments is one thing. I think it’s really important to think about. The example that Ionesco gives is people saying, 'Yeah, on one hand, with the Jews, maybe they are right.' With Trump, people will say something like, 'Yeah, but on taxes, maybe he’s right.' And the thing to catch is, 'Yeah, but are you in favor of regime change? Are you in favor of the end of the American way of democracy and fair play?' Because that’s what’s really at stake.
With people all the way over at the end of the spectrum who are now confident about Trump—that’s a different subject. I think it’s important to maintain impossible human relations across that divide, because some of those people are going to change their minds. It’s harsh. But some will change their minds, and if they have no one to talk to, it will be much harder for them to change their minds. At different points on the spectrum, you have to think in different ways. My own major concern right now is with self-confidence and the energy of the people who do have the deep—and, I think incorrect—conviction that something has gone wildly wrong.
SR: The people who have the conviction that something has gone wildly wrong—that can describe Trump supporters and Trump opponents.
TS: That’s a good point. So much of this is personal. In the book, I don’t actually mention anybody’s name, except the thinkers who I admire. So much of this is personal that people think, 'Well, if you say anything critical, it is about you as a person, and how you don’t like anything about someone who likes Trump.' That’s a way for there to be no political discussion.
I
think it’s useful, even though you will never win the argument, when you are
talking about people who support to the administration, to stay at the level of
the Constitution. To stay at the level of freedom, or stay at the level of
basic issues, like, is global warming really going to be so great, when the
entire Pentagon says that it is a national security threat? Or, is it really
such a good idea to treat Muslims like this? Or, is it really going to be so
good when millions of people lose health insurance?
Keep
it at the level of issues as much as possible, because what I’ve found is the
pattern that people shift to is, 'Why are you going to be so hard on this guy?
Give him a chance.' But the issues of what’s constitutional, what is actually
American, and what’s going to be a policy that they are going to be proud of a
year from now—keep the conversation closest to the Constitution. It’s easiest
to be dismissed when it’s personal. And fundamentally, this is the trick. It
isn’t personal. It doesn’t matter who’s in charge. What matters is the system,
which people of very different convictions take for granted, is now under
threat.
SR: You
have said that the Muslims are being targeted as the Jews were targeted in
Germany. But out here in California, it also feels like the deportation
machinery is getting ready for undocumented immigrants. On Monday, Reuters
reported that Homeland Security officials said they might separate mothers from
kids when making arrests. Germany did that as it rounded up Jews. Don’t they
face just as grave a threat?
TS: With the Muslims, the resemblance to anti-Semitic policy in Germany in ’33 is that if you can pick some group and make them stand in for some international threat, then you can change domestic politics, because domestic politics then is no longer about compromises and competing interests, domestic politics is about who inside the society should actually be seen and outside the society. Once you get the wedge in with the first group, them you essentially win. It could be the Muslims. It could be somebody else, is the point. The political logic is basically the same.
With undocumented immigrants, I think the logic might be a little bit different. I think the goal might be to get us used to seeing a certain kind of police power. And getting us used to seeing things happening to people in public. And then if we get used to that, then we might be more willing for the dial to turn a little bit further. It’s too soon for me to speculate confidently about all of this.
TS: With the Muslims, the resemblance to anti-Semitic policy in Germany in ’33 is that if you can pick some group and make them stand in for some international threat, then you can change domestic politics, because domestic politics then is no longer about compromises and competing interests, domestic politics is about who inside the society should actually be seen and outside the society. Once you get the wedge in with the first group, them you essentially win. It could be the Muslims. It could be somebody else, is the point. The political logic is basically the same.
With undocumented immigrants, I think the logic might be a little bit different. I think the goal might be to get us used to seeing a certain kind of police power. And getting us used to seeing things happening to people in public. And then if we get used to that, then we might be more willing for the dial to turn a little bit further. It’s too soon for me to speculate confidently about all of this.
I
think you’re right though, it could be the Muslims, but it doesn’t have to be
the Muslims. The crucial thing is to get some kind of in [political opening]
where people go along with or accept stigmatization. And the logic is there’s
always some kind of threat that comes from beyond the country. And that we can
fix that threat on a group of people inside the country. And if you go along
with this, what else are you agreeing to go along with?
SR: To go back to your book, what you’re saying is that people should
be vigilant, should know their values and participate at some level with making
those values known, because that is what ordinary people can do.
TS: Yes.
The point of the book is [that] we are facing a real crisis and a real moment
of choice. The possibilities are much darker than Americans are used to
considering. But at the same time, what we can do is much more important than
we realize. The regime will only change if the gamble of the people in the
White House is right: That many of us despise many others of us and that most
of us are indifferent. If it turns out that there are emotions and values that
are more numerous and more vibrant than indifference and hatred, things are
going to be okay. That depends on us. That depends on us making certain
realizations. It depends on us acting fast. In that sense it’s a test, not just
collectively. Maybe there’s no such thing as a collective test. But it is a
test for us individually.
Most
Americans who haven’t been abroad haven't been faced by something like this.
And hopefully they won’t be faced with it again. But we are faced with it as
citizens and as individuals. And I think, five or 10 years from now, no matter
how things turn out, we’ll ask ourselves—or our children will ask us—how we
behaved in 2017.
Steven
Rosenfeld covers national political issues for AlterNet, including America's
democracy and voting rights. He is the author of several books on elections and
the co-author of Who Controls Our Schools: How Billionaire-Sponsored
Privatization Is Destroying Democracy and the Charter School Industry [4] (AlterNet
eBook, 2016).
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