There Is Much to Do: An Interview With Hugo Chavez
By Greg Grandin
The Nation
September 27, 2009
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091012/grandin
Three years ago, Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez
caused a stir when, in a speech to the United Nations
General Assembly, he called then-US President George W.
Bush a "devil." "I can still smell the sulfur," he
said, standing at the same podium where, a day earlier,
Bush had given his own address. Last week, Chavez once
again followed a
this time he caught a whiff of something
different--"the smell of hope." In the following
interview--conducted at
United Nations in
relationship with Barack Obama and what his election
could mean for the
Honduran crisis, plans to extend the Pentagon's
presence in
challenges, and the legacy of Brazilian president Luiz
Inacio Lula da Silva.
Greg Grandin: I'd like first to ask you about the
Honduran crisis. Manuel Zelaya--the president
overthrown in a coup on June 28--is currently in the
Brazilian embassy in Tegucigalpa, having returned to
the country in secret. What happens next? What can be
done to force those who carried out the coup to negotiate?
Hugo Chavez: It's not for me to decide what the next
step is. Zelaya has called for dialogue. That was the
first thing he did as soon as he entered the Brazilian
embassy. The coup-plotters have responded with
repression, death and terror. I believe that the brutal
nature of this coup will lead to its failure.
GG: But how do you explain the intransigence of Roberto
Micheletti, the president installed by the coup? There
is about a month to go before the scheduled November 29
presidential elections, and whether Zelaya is returned
to office or not, we know that one of two candidates
from either the National or Liberal parties--both
conservatives--is going to win. So why wouldn't the de
facto government want a negotiated solution, allowing a
symbolic return of Zelaya to the presidency for a short
period in order to legitimate the outcome of the election?
HC: Noam Chomsky has a book, which I read for the first
time when I was in
There is your answer. Fear of democracy. In
they had a sham democracy. It was run by elites, what
was called a liberal democracy but in reality was a
false democracy.
group that for a long time has been supported by the
against other countries of
came from the ranks of the Liberal Party, he entered
the government as an intelligent young man, breathing
in the new winds blowing from
of change, I would say even winds of revolution. It is
different from the revolution of the 1970s. This one is
carried out not with rifles but by a peaceful people,
it is a democratic revolution. Montesquieu said that
men needed to be able to ride the wave of events. And
that's what Zelaya did. With his cowboy hat he climbed
up and rode the wave. And as soon as he broached the
question of convening a constitutional assembly to
consult with the people about refounding the republic,
the political class that has governed all this time,
the Honduran bourgeoisie, became frightened. That is
the fear of democracy.
GG: What is the importance of events in
the rest of the continent? There are signs that the
right, the transnational right, is regrouping, and that
it sees
struggle to roll back the left.
HC: They are going to fail. Of course, it is important
not to underestimate the continental right. It has gone
on the offensive in many places. They attacked
Venezuela, hard, with the support of Bush, as you know.
They attacked in
the Workers Party couldn't govern. They failed. They
attacked
serpent, in an effort to overthrow Evo Morales. They
failed. They attacked
still there. Then, in
believed to be--and in a way was--the weakest flank.
But they were in for a surprise. For three months, the
Honduran people have been in the street, with
unprecedented strength. That's what they found on the
supposed weak flank. So I think the continental right
should well consider its next step. They haven't even
been able to consolidate their power in
notwithstanding that they enjoy the monolithic unity of
the Honduran bourgeoisie and the support of the
military, so if they decide to attack again in South
chess, that we are fighting everyday. But the
continental right has lost its way, it doesn't have a
project for governance. In the
government is bailing out banks, intervening in the
economy, yet in
talk about "free markets." It's totally outdated, they
don't have arguments, they don't have any sense.
GG: But they will have seven
HC: It seems as if there are two Barack Obamas. And
hopefully, the Obama who spoke today at the United
Nations will win out in the end. But it was Obama who
also approved the seven military bases in
Nobody can think otherwise, because who is the
president, who is the commander-in-chief of the
military if not Obama? If
troops to another country, or to set up a military base
in
the decision. So Obama is full of contradictions, and
hopefully the people of the
thinking public, need to push your president. If I were
I New Yorker, I would say, Mr. President, why are you
putting military bases in
Trinidad [at the
I said to Bill Clinton ten years ago--one could at
least talk to Clinton--and the same I told George W.
Bush--only one time, because one couldn't talk about
anything with him--"let's look for peace in
Hopefully the people of the
from its president, and its government, and its
congress, to stop with the politics of war throughout
the world. Obama said some troublesome things today,
veiled threats. I have the phrase here, if I am not
mistaken, that the
interests of all." Does this mean that tomorrow Obama
is going to be able to say that he has invaded
order to defend the interests of
be defended by
interests of the
the intellectuals, who could put limits on their government?
GG: Since President Obama has taken office, has US
policy toward
HC: Yes, for the worst.
GG: For the worst?
HC: Yes, for the worst. The seven Colombian military
bases. They are a threat to
Obama--and today at the UN he listed all the steps he
has taken [to improve relations with the rest of the
world]--eliminated the Fourth Fleet? It was Bush that
re-established the Fourth Fleet, a threat to all of
that its purpose was to patrol
We are all worried about this in
each country has expressed concern in its own way,
Venezuela, Bolivia, even
military bases, the Colombian conflict is going to be
spilling out across
listen to other voices, and not just repeat what the
Pentagon says, those same advisers of Bush, the war makers.
GG: Do you think it ironic that the Right in the
uses the same tactics and rhetoric to attack Obama that
the Venezuelan right uses against your government? Did
you follow what happened just two weeks ago, with
Obama's planned address to schoolchildren, when they
attacked him in terms very similar to the criticism
used against your education reform?
HC: Ah, yes, I read about that, that it was socialist indoctrination.
GG: Exactly.
HC: If only it were socialism! I believe they are
scared. And this fear is dangerous. Because independent
of whatever reasoned criticism we might have of Obama--
such as that concerning the Fourth Fleet, which is an
effort to make his actions be coherent with his words--
here within the
is scared. And they hate him. First, because he is black...
GG: This is a debate now within the
HC: Jimmy Carter is saying it. And hopefully Obama
won't be assassinated because of it. But Obama has also
taken up the theme of social reform almost as if it
were a point of honor, because he made the pledge
during the campaign. And also, as Obama knows, out of
necessity. Everyday there is more poverty in the United
States, everyday there is more uncared-for people who
don't have medicine, doctors, or even education. This
country is eating itself from the inside. What's
happening to the American, how do you say it, Dream [in
English]. I believe in the American Dream, but the
dream of Martin Luther King Jr., not the dream of
consumerism, unbridled capitalism or individualism,
that craziness, that's not a dream it's a nightmare.
Now, the recalcitrant right attacks Obama hard, calling
him a socialist...
GG: Even a Nazi.
HC: Yes, a Nazi! When we met in
hands, the right roasted him here for doing so:
"Chavez! Why are you greeting Chavez?!" Imagine the
craziness just for saying hello. It's irrational. The
right here is scared that Obama is awakening a popular
current in the people of the US, and they are trying to
stop it. Where it is going to wind up, who knows? But I
have a question, where is the
people, when their leader tries to propose something in
benefit of the people? The people need to go out into
the streets, not just to vote but to passionately
protest, to support the president, so he can fulfill
his promise. Where are the people?
GG: It is the right that is in the street.
HC: Yes, the right has taken over the street. There is
much to do. Those who represent progressive thought--
and I include you--need to know that without the
people, there is no democracy. The people of the United
States need to wake up, wake up and help construct a
new country, a great nation, a true democracy. Obama
can be an opportunity, and you need to support him with
great force, in order to contain those that ferociously
oppose whatever change. Like in
situation. The progressive community of the United
States needs to support Obama to achieve change, and
then it has to demand more change, and more change, and
more change.
GG: There is a sense among progressives in the
the Bolivarian Revolution has reached its limits, at
least domestically. They have heard much about your
anti-imperialism and your efforts to form a multipolar
world, but they know less about what is happening in
the country, the successes and failures in advancing a
"protagonist democracy."
HC: Many political analysts--the majority of them
spokespeople for the right--along with the media--also
dominated by the right--go around creating the idea
that the government of the Bolivarian Revolution is on
the point of collapse. The fall of the price of oil
affected us in a way, but not fundamentally, not at the
roots or the base of the process. We are passing
through stages. We are starting the second decade of
the revolution, and are now approaching a new political
horizon. The communal councils for example, continue to
extend, continue to grow, and they have evolved into a
more ambitious project, a socialist commune. We are
leaving behind--slowly, but steadily, not in a day, a
year or five years--oil dependency, advancing the
industrialization of the country. If some people here
believe--people of good faith, readers of The Nation--
that the Bolivarian Revolution is exhausted, tell them
that it isn't. You can tell them to come and see for
themselves.
problems, and its revolutionary government has
failures, and has made mistakes, but it is an ongoing process.
GG:
HC: We have achieved nearly all of the Millennium
Development Goals. I was here almost ten years ago, in
the Millennium
task--I wasn't yet considered the devil, though they
were undoubtedly still evaluating me--to coordinate one
of the roundtables. I was there for a few days, day
after day working and talking with
there too. I remember the day Fidel shook
hand,
short conversation. We had meetings with delegates from
Africa, Asia, from
goals [to reduce poverty]. But today, at the global
level, we are poorer than ten years ago. And not only
in absolute numbers but relative numbers. But in
continues to go down. The minimum wage is the highest
in
more and more people. The standard of living has risen
in
United Nations Development Program we are in the top
rank of human development. We are far from our goals,
but we have left the inferno. Attention to the
excluded, literacy,
of illiteracy. Poverty has been halved from it was ten
years ago, which was one of the Millennium Goals.
Access to potable water, we passed that Millennium goal
a long time ago. In education, we have doubled the
number of children going to school. It is possible to
leave poverty, it is possibly to pull people out of
misery. We call this socialism. In Obama's
reflections--the ones I have heard--there are elements
of this thought. We don't call it socialist, but it is
a revindication of public policy.
GG: What you have achieved inspires many. But can you
talk about the failures, or the concrete plans you have
to address ongoing problems, such as inflation, crime
and insecurity?
HC: On every front, there are failures and still much
work to be done. Right now we are in the process of
what we call the three Rs: revision, rectification and
re-starting. In health care, in education, improving
services, correcting mistakes. We are increasing
participatory democracy, protagonist democracy.
Delinquency is a global problem, not an exclusive
Venezuelan one. Corruption is hurting us. I believe
Obama talked this morning of the problem of corruption
in developing countries. But here, in the
a lot of corruption. In
Capitalism is the reign of corruption. Everything that
happened with the big corporations, the big banks, the
big insurance companies. What is it? Corruption.
Corruption of values, fraud against the people, theft
from the citizenry. Now, when I mentioned earlier about
a new stage, 2010 to 2020, I was talking about above
all a project that had to solve these problems, this weakness.
GG: But how, exactly? Can you give some concrete
examples, say, in reference to violence and public
security? One recent report identifies
terms of homicide rates--as the second most violent
city in the world, after
HC:
GG:
HC: I think there are cities in the United States that
are more violent. I don't want to minimize the problem.
Look, we are attacking the problem with a lot of
energy, with distinct programs. For example, a little
while ago we enacted legislation restructuring the
National Police, because historically, going back many
years, the police department was penetrated by
delinquents. So we are trying to cleanse the police.
But at the bottom of this is a cultural problem. Out-
of-control crime, in all these countries, is part of a
moral crisis. Ask yourself, how many children right at
this moment are watching violence on TV, on the
Internet? Music that encourages drug use and
irresponsible sex? This is a product of the capitalist
model, the culture of capitalism, hyper-individualism.
It's part of the great crisis of the time. It requires
a new world, with new values. As Jesus Christ says,
"love others as yourself." If you love others as
yourself, you are incapable of hurting others. GG: One
last question. Since 2003, the relationship between you
and Brazilian president Luiz InA¡cio Lula da Silva has
been fascinating. Working together in the field of
international relations, you have led what some have
described as
least have brought about the end of the
Doctrine. But in about a year, that relationship is
going to end, when Lula's second, and last,
presidential term expires. We are going to be in a
"post-Lula" world. Have you given any thought how this
is going to affect your foreign policy, since you have
worked together in a very...
HC: Closely.
GG: Yes, closely.
HC: Coordinated.
GG: Yes, coordinated.
HC: Lula is a great person, a great compaA±ero. They
tried to create a rift between us, but it failed. I
have the hope that after Lula comes someone who will
continue along the same path. Lula has managed to put
his own stamp on
had fallen into the hands of, well, neoliberal
governments. It lacked leadership. About four or five
years ago,
petroleum reserves. But no longer. Lula rescued [the
state oil company] Petrobras, he invested resources,
and recovered the independence of
no longer depends on the International Monetary Fund.
exports. The attitude of
neighbors has greatly changed, toward
Ecuador, Bolivia, the smallest and weakest countries,
and above all because of Lula. This is Lula's great
legacy, and it is going to be difficult to change. Many
things will change. Someone will take office with his
or her own stamp, own style. But
standing. With
relationship we have, in the strategic alliance. But I
have much faith that the person who comes next will be
a man or woman of the left, from the Workers Party, who
will continue to try to meet the challenge presented by
Lula at his inauguration.
Remember, the 2002 coup in
against me but against Lula, who was a presidential
candidate at the time. It was meant as a demonstration
effect. They were telling the Brazilian people, look,
if you elect Lula, this is what could happen to you.
So, when Lula was inaugurated on January 1, 2003, I
went. I'll never forget it. We were in a terrible
battle at home, of destabilization, economic and
petroleum sabotage, terrorism, threats of more coups.
But I wanted to go to
that we needed a project that covered all of South
beyond Lula, beyond Chavez, and beyond Evo. When each
of us are gone, the people are left standing, and South
___________________
Greg Grandin, a professor of history at
University, is the author, most recently, of
Fordlandia: The Rise and Fall of Henry Ford's Forgotten
committee of the North American Congress on
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